First time post, looking for Guru advice...Curing questions mainly.

[thrasha]

Greetings...  I am looking for any jerky experts out there, that may have some advice on a jerky.  This is a jerky type that I want to be free of the chemical sodium nitrite/nitrate and only use the celery powder/sea salt equivalent.  This jerky will meet all aspects of humidity in the cooking phase and finish with a proper internal time and temperature dwell time or instant 158°F.

My main concern is of curing.  I am a major advocate of sodium nitrite in typical meats of jerky with its governmental regulation and proper formulation.  The percentages seem to have a long legacy of follow through.  My confusion lies with formulation of Celery powder/Sea Salt conversion to make a cured type jerky.  I understand the conversion of nitrate natural breakdown with bacteria to form nitrite which in turns, cures the meat.

I have seen multiple retailers or distributors sell their versions of Celery Powder packages with their 'recommended usage'.  Anywhere from 1.25oz for 25 lbs. of meat or "1 to 2 lbs. celery per 90 lbs. of meat."  With the wide discrepancy in curing numbers, I begin to feel insecure.  How is the breakdown of Nitrate to Nitrite conversion being established; something they learned; science based to protect against Nitrite toxicity? 

Since there is no regulation of Celery based curing methods, can you inadvertently use too much of said curing method and create a critical safety issue?

I guess I am looking for limits with this Celery based curing method and a history of protection.  I know my food safety in fighting the pathogens of concern, so this is mainly a C-bot issue in making sure all of my batch would be properly cured since this will be an anaerobic product where C-bot can grow.

Thanks for any advice 

 

[DivotMaker]

Hi Thrasha, and welcome!  Are you a SI owner?  We'd love to hear what you have!  Also, we like to see a first name, and town, in you signature line.  As you've probably seen, we're pretty familiar around here!

You say you want to be "free of the chemical sodium nirtrite/nitrate;" do you know that nitrites are nitrites, and nitrates are nitrates, chemically speaking?  Whether they are in Instacure #1 (6.25% nitrite), or in celery, they are still nitrites?  Many want to lambaste nitrites as some evil that we need to rid the world of, but in reality, they are present in a lot of foods we eat everyday!  My honest opinion is that many producers switched to celery powder as a means of appealing to the hype about the evils of nitrite/nitrate curing.  Marketing gimmicks, 101. 

As far as conversion, if you are really dead-set on going that route instead of conventional curing with #1 or 2 powders, you will have to determine the percentage of nitrites in the celery powder, compared to salt/fillers.  For example, #1 Instacure is 6.25% nitrite; that means it's 93.75% salt.  If you have the percentage, you can use this calculator to determine the quantities for an equilibrium brine:

Martin's Equilibrium Brine Calculator

Equilibrium brining, especially for things like jerky, is great.  The results become very repeatable, and the ingredients are controlled precisely.  Here's my method for jerky:

Brine-Cured Jerky, Part Deux (this includes a link to part 1, which explains more about why I use the equilibrium brining method).

One more free tip about jerky, in an SI smoker:  Get a jerky fan.  You will not be able to remove enough moisture to dry the meat, and will instead cook it.  The point is to dry it, and the fan allows that.

This will probably be the start to a good discussion!  Glad to have you with us!

 

[thrasha]

Hi DivotMaker,

I may have ventured into a forum that I didn't actually know that pertained to the smoker.  I was mainly looking for a network of meat processors, artisans, enthusiasts  or others in the craft with more experience than myself.  I am a haccp certified meat processor looking at or into the consumer hungry market for "sodium nitrite/nitrate free" hype. 

I know the strict guidelines when it comes to nitrite control/labeling control, and am looking into how the calculation of a 'celery' type process, which contains concentrations of nitrates, that will soon have the natural occurring nitrite to follow.  Those natural occurring nitrite properties is what I am after.  If a sodium nitrite is so heavily regulated by government at 4oz per 100.  What responsibility or safety measure should we be aware of for making a properly cured product.

I can't find any scientific data, math data on a conversion of (concentrated celery powder(nitrate)/natural microorganisms = Nitrite).  I know the common sodium cures of 93.75/6.25.  If sodium nitrite is so toxic (little as 3 to 4gms. can be lethal) and we're finding a work around way of achieving a nitrite curing property without knowing how much is there, leaves me wondering.

All this leads me back to when I first started looking for vendors of the celery powder/juice/baste.  It all seems to be subjective to the manufacturer.  Some have just concentrated celery powder alone.  Others will have a sea salt which has little extra nitrates.  All these vendors have different recommendations for their cure to meat ratio, how is that equation formulated?  Is that formulation proprietary, if so, how is food safety proprietary?

I know I am getting away from my real point question; can we use too much celery curing powder,juice etc...where it'll become toxic to the natural occurring nitrite properties over time?  Or am I safe to assume that the normal calculations of Sodium Chloride to Sodium Nitrite apply here to celery type cures?  Like I said about the vendors, I have seen 1 oz. for 25 lbs. vs 5 lbs for 100 lbs.  Too much ambiguity 

As a meat processor.  I will want to appease the public in what they want.  What I will not do personally, is to send out an uncured meat product ie; jerky, sausage, bacon etc.. to the public.  The risks are just to great, even if the public wants it that badly (most have no clue).  Under USDA, we are required to state on labels "Uncured" or "no added nitrates/nitrites" because they do not recognize 'celery version' a curing agent.  I do not think anyone in the industry would send out an uncured product other than finding a 'work around'.  I know this 'work around' has been out there a long time, I am only looking for its formulation

Sorry for any confusion,

I do like your site, a lot of knowledgeable ppl here all across the board.

 

[Pork Belly]

certified meat processor looking at or into the consumer hungry market for "sodium nitrite/nitrate free" hype.

So you understand that the "Nitrate Free" & "Uncured, No Nitrates" is hype.
We are all adult you can say crap, not hype because that is what it is.

I find it odd  you as a commercial producer coming to a group of hobbyists to advise you, how to take advantage of the public's lack of knowledge. I for one won't help you with that.

 

[DivotMaker]

Kenny,

Thank you for your honesty.  But, I agree with Brian, about seeking advice to take advantage of uneducated consumers.  My 2¢ is that you would be better off being upfront with your consumers, and explain to them why you use traditional curing methods, and why the argument against them is crapola.  We consumers, educated or not, respond to honesty, and especially producers who resist the urge to cater to the "cause de jour," like the battle against nitrites/nitrates.

I hope you join in on discussions, as I bet you have a lot to offer we amateurs.  Owning an SI smoker is certainly not a requirement to participate! 

 

[Plan2build]

Kenny,

Celery powder made from celery juice typically has 27,500 ppm of nitrate or 2.75%.  Check out the several pages of this book abstract and see if it leads you in a direction you would like to go...

https://books.google.com/books?id=C-wrQaaXxj0C&pg=PA398#v=onepage&q&f=false

P2B

 

[thrasha]

Kenny,

Celery powder made from celery juice typically has 27,500 ppm of nitrate or 2.75%.  Check out the several pages of this book abstract and see if it leads you in a direction you would like to go...

https://books.google.com/books?id=C-wrQaaXxj0C&pg=PA398#v=onepage&q&f=false

P2B

This is awesome.  It's the stuff like this is what I am looking for.  I spent long time looking for this type of info from manufacturers or vendors and was met with no help or closed door to the face.  Plan2build, I thank you.

If you guys think that I think I came here to take advantage of consumers, you are quite wrong.  I am looking to make a product, that consumers want.  However, I am really looking for the science, conclusions/numbers as to how celery was established, which looks like Plan2build done well.  I want to create an all natural product, free of sodium, only using 'natural occurring' ingredients.  I want the product to be cured.  I am not ignorant to the pathogens of a ready to eat or smoke product.  It's the ambiguity in celery is where my concerns laid.  I do think what P2B linked may help me to better understand, craft a natural curing agent with confidence.

Pork Belly:  The whole celery hype/crap business i agree with.  It's crap.  To consumers it's hype, and that's what they want.  I want to make them an all natural product.  I have learned that it's all to hard to change peoples mind but I will not sacrifice food safety without understanding this natural curing process.

USDA requires meat processors to put on their label, "Uncured" or "No added nitrite/nitrate" ect..  If I could put 'Naturally cured', I would; sounds better and true.  Since USDA does not or will not recognize celery powder as a cure and requires those omissions of "uncured" or "added" on labels; the census becomes that industry is misleading the public, when in fact it is USDA telling industry to put those statements on their labels. 

DivotMaker:  I came here with a purpose.  To ask for help from the backyard enthusiasts, hobbyists of meat, experienced jerky-crafters, sausage-crafters.  To me, it's these types of people who have became the industry, so to speak.  They had something great in their backyard bbqing that everyone loved, made their own business out of it.  I hold the greatest respect for enthusiasts.  The people here did not disappoint.

If I offended anyone in any shape or form, it was the furthest thing from my mind and I apologize.

Oh fyi, don't perceive me as a big industry pushing person....I work in a small plant of 7, we are conformists to the USDA.  They tell you how to do everything, and I mean everything  :

Cheers,

 

[DivotMaker]

Kenny,

I appreciate your comments, and respect where you're coming from.  I know you, as a business owner, need to meet customer needs to survive, and if that's what they want, you need to find a way to safely provide it.  I still stand by my comments about providing traditionally-cured products, with an explanation.  But, I know that celery sells!  I buy "uncured" Canadian bacon, from Sam's (I believe it's Rose brand).  It tastes like cured CB, and the first ingredient listed is celery powder!  I started buying this before I knew that celery contained the key ingredients to curing!

I've also had thoughts of looking at celery as a cure.  I'll be happy to help in your research; your last post convinced me that you are truly trying to find a safe way to meet customer needs...totally get that!

By the way, I'm originally from Fullerton, so I know that you're dealing with Cali consumers, which can be tough!